tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post340342259823857974..comments2023-07-01T03:06:08.947-06:00Comments on World of Feedback: Tom's thoughts on hunters/arena/ from gamespy interviewSamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00384554437096427217noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-31588753720907322852008-04-28T03:27:00.000-06:002008-04-28T03:27:00.000-06:00quoted by Leiah: "Hunters are bullshit. I got bore...quoted by Leiah:<BR/><BR/> "Hunters are bullshit. I got bored yesterday and logged into jade on tich since I haven't been able to kill anything on my druid. I did a single solo pug wsg game. Averaging over 15,000 damage per minute in a 20 minute game is a little ridiculous. Hunters are quite possibly the most solid BG dps class in the game. Could they use a little arena love? I suppose, but not much. Maybe an ability that would shoot a trap to a remote location every now and then, such as at a teammates' feet. Regardless, I still say hunters are quite solid atm."<BR/><BR/>quoted by Leiah:<BR/><BR/>"Pretty much what I've been saying for quite a while, even before I started playing one."<BR/><BR/>Hunters are BALANCED in BG's. The thoughts and ideas of hunters being "Arguably one of the stronger battleground classes in the game" is a falacy. Every class is solid in BG's. I see hunters at top in damage, I see druid at top in damage, I see rogues warriors, shamen priests, mages, warlocks and hell I saw a HOLY PALLI IN BLUES TROMP the damage meters in one game. I have seen locks be first place in DPS by a LONG SHOT and 3rd in healing. <BR/><BR/>Through your hunter travels you mention how the class is balanced, how they are fine blah blah. You write these posts with a one sided perception (warlocks perspective, rogues perspective?) saying that hunters are fine and attack anyone that says otherwise. <BR/><BR/>Now you are saying hunters need help. We are gimped in arena, which we already all know. This information was available to any open minded person that did arena since season 1.<BR/><BR/>You claim these ties to devs, to blizzard. I don't doubt them but I do question your true inner intentions into class balance, same as I question Tom Chiltons. We all know he favors melee classes, he has a proven history of that and I think we all know what I am talking about. <BR/><BR/>I guess I need to get to the point. You seem to follow the flavor of the month and blow with the wind. I suggest in the future that you please refrain from using your authority and prowess in the wow game community to sway readers feelings or believes on class balance in directions that only suit your personal desires. You state "When designing end game pve or pvp content, who do you want to get feedback from? Random scrubs that can't even keyboard turn their way to victory? Or those who know their class (and others) inside and out? But now I'm just stating the obvious."<BR/><BR/>You are suggesting that blizzard listens to you, then why did you make the initial statement of "Hunters are quite solid ATM" when in fact when you made that statement they were not and have only gotten worse. Your references were not about BG's only, you made a blanket statement that appears to cover arena, PvE and BG's. You did not know hunters 'inside and out' when you made your "hunters are BS" post, because if you did you would have known then how jacked the hunter class has been since the beginning of TBC and there are numbers to prove this and your current feelings reflect the same. <BR/><BR/>Also, you point out that hunter DPS is 'beastly'. Why? Because we can create a macro timing our shots together with minimal loss mixed with some haste. Seriously, this has nothing to do with the classes damage per hit. If mages, locks, warriors, whatever could time their attacks to a perfect rotation through the use of a macro, their damage would DESTROY hunters damage. <BR/><BR/>I just get tired of people saying hunter dps is fine in pve. IT IS NOT FINE, hunters made it work when blizzard destroyed our dps pre TBC. <BR/><BR/>I understand the end result is that speccing right into BM and using a macro will yield amazing end game results, this does nothing for pvp and I still argue that BM is a good pvp spec. Why would TBW give immunity for 18 seconds...to get away from pve mobs? Bah... <BR/><BR/>I have no intention of bagging on you, but some of your posts contradict other posts you make. You have done this since day one in regards to the hunter class. IF enough of this happens then your words will hold less and less weight. IT is not comforting to know someone with your Blizzard insight is making suggestions for class balance when you have already proven yourself to not fully understand the class. <BR/><BR/>Maybe it IS time to give some of the long time 'scrubs' the chance to address our REAL issues. It is scary to think that just because you raid in a top end guild and rub elbows with Blizzard employees that you have any true and long standing ideas of a class that you never played pre TBC. <BR/><BR/>I also like the false idea that hunters are fine in arena because they can achieve a 2200 rating with a druid, the most OBVIOUS overpowered class in the game, rogues being second. But with you playing a rogue and a lock does that mean that rogues will never get nerfed. Everyone knows they need it. I mean this talk of buffing dagger spec, like they REALLY need it right now. I dont recall reading any posts about this by you..at this point I am just ranting. <BR/><BR/>Again, I am not trying to belittle you but I just wonder where you truly stand.<BR/><BR/>Are hunters FINALLY after 13 months going to get an arena buff to help us because you want to play your hunter now?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-55867051582542379752008-04-25T07:48:00.000-06:002008-04-25T07:48:00.000-06:00I guess to further add to my previous comment:-Spe...I guess to further add to my previous comment:<BR/>-Spellhaste. I love it, but it really needs to affect the GCD for warlock's instants more. Going through 3 GCDs just to refresh dots on a single target is a PITA considering how much I have to refresh them, especially in 3v3 and 5v5. I'm assuming there's PvE concerns involved, so why not just lower or remove GCD's for warlock dots across the board absent spellhaste? (Curses, Corruption, Siphon Life)<BR/>-Sunder Armor/Expose Armor. Change to % removal or cap the amount. It's weird that a talent that looked more like it was meant to increase damage against high armor targets is instead used to gib clothies.<BR/>-+ Armor for clothies. If you expect us to sit there and tank while the melee classes get to stack PvE gear out the ass (lol evasion, CloS, cheat death), then give us the tools to do so. Add Seals of Danzalar, +armor cloaks, etc. Passive +1k armor to pvp trinkets for warlocks would be a start.<BR/>-Demon Armor. It's useless. The health regen is pitiful, and less than you'd get for using Fel Armor instead. The shadow resistance is pitiful. The +armor is nice, but you get more survivability out of using Fel Armor for the health Regen. Change to: "Demon Armor Rank 6<BR/>820 Mana<BR/>Instant cast<BR/>Protects the caster, increasing armor by 660, and increasing the amount of health generated through spells and effects by 20%. Only one type of Armor spell can be active on the Warlock at any time. Lasts 30 min." There, I just took a non-used spell and made it useful, added more depth to the lock class by giving them a choice between two armors (offensive fel armor v. defensive demon armor), and solved their melee problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-21788869473789482422008-04-25T07:22:00.000-06:002008-04-25T07:22:00.000-06:00"For Lock pets, give them all an ability to banish..."For Lock pets, give them all an ability to banish themselves, making them immune to all damage and healing, clear all debuffs, KEEP SOUL LINK ACTIVE, and increase health regen to something around half of what being Polymorphed grants for 8 seconds.<BR/><BR/>Put both abilities on a lowish cooldown of 25-30 seconds. This way, greater pet survivability is granted via player skill in choosing when to use an activated ability rather than passively."<BR/><BR/>I like this idea far more than adding more passive abilities to the warlock class. It's bad enough that warlock's survivability is based on a giant passive talent that requires nothing from the warlock. Soul Link is the equivalent of saying to the warlock "here have some plate." When Soul Link was enough mitigation back in S1/S2 any scrubling was able to do well with it.<BR/><BR/>What the warlock class needs is abilities that can allow good players to succeed well. Passive abilities (Soul Link, Master Demonologist, etc.) don't add anything to the skill cap of warlocks. With Soul Link there's nothing I can do personally to mitigate more. If pets just get stacked resilience there's nothing I can really do to save my pet more. The class is stale enough as is, I'd hate to see it get any staler. If Soul Link worked more like your idea for pet survivability, or like a warrior's shield reflect or rogue's CloS etc., then good warlocks would be able to use skill and timing to make more out of the talent than we can out of a passive 20% damage reduction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-4326448802055661792008-04-25T01:33:00.000-06:002008-04-25T01:33:00.000-06:00Micromanagement is already huge on a petclass. I c...Micromanagement is already huge on a petclass. I can't speak for warlocks, but definately for a hunter.<BR/><BR/>While I love the amount of micro involved, it's still unfair, compared to other classes. I don't mind having to chose from a wider variety of skills everytime, always trying to come up with the best possible decision at any time. But increasing hunter's micro in the arena is not the way, blizz should go.<BR/><BR/>It's mainly the amount of micro and needed foresight, that creates this huge gap between most hunters and the exceptional ones.<BR/><BR/>While your idea sounds nice in an ideal world, where everyclasses micro is big, and classes are mostly balanced, it'd be only fair to increase micro for the second toon we control.<BR/><BR/>But as it stands right now, I'd say pet survivability should be only increased via micromanagement, if the hunter's personal micro would be lowered somehow.<BR/><BR/>Suggestions were already made, give aspects their own CD and take them out of the hunters GCD, maybe even lower the GCD. Make something about autoshotclipping, etc.<BR/><BR/>With less headache on general play, our minds would be free to think even more of our pets in combat.<BR/><BR/>But some passive improvement would still be needed, besides this active effect. Right now it takes just a few secs, to get rid of a pet. Without passive improvement, the pet handler would still be forced to activate the ability, as soon as a warrior lands two blows on it. All the opposing team has to do is count on 10 and zerg the pet later.<BR/><BR/>Pets should scale the way, that at any point of gear and level, the ratio between the difficulties involved in killing the pet or the handler would be the same.<BR/><BR/>I can't be right, if a handler in greens is so much easier to kill than his pet, than a handler in epics versus his pet. Without trying to keep this proportion right, we will reach a level of armour, where killing the pet will be a nobrainer. While having our pets being still calculated into our utility and damage, making us reliant on our pets.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-45044761805803963212008-04-24T08:32:00.000-06:002008-04-24T08:32:00.000-06:00I could see adding a small heal share to Soul Link...I could see adding a small heal share to Soul Link (10%?) and the 31pt. Beastmastery talent (forget the name), but I can't see giving it as an inherent ability. I think there are better solutions.<BR/><BR/>How about adding a trainable ability for Hunter pets similar to the flayer mobs in Hellfire Peninsula where they turn their skin to stone, have reduced movement speed, clear all debuffs, and take something like 60% less damage for 10 seconds? <BR/><BR/>For Lock pets, give them all an ability to banish themselves, making them immune to all damage and healing, clear all debuffs, KEEP SOUL LINK ACTIVE, and increase health regen to something around half of what being Polymorphed grants for 8 seconds. <BR/><BR/>Put both abilities on a lowish cooldown of 25-30 seconds. This way, greater pet survivability is granted via player skill in choosing when to use an activated ability rather than passively. <BR/><BR/>On top of that, I could see a slight improvement to the formula for Stamina scaling relative to the pet's master, a respectable buff of the trainable abilities for Hunter pets that increase Stamina and Armor, having Master Demonologist talent also increase the pet's armor by 5% per point, and granting pets 20% of their master's Resilience.<BR/><BR/>Sound good?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-10657224004223327442008-04-24T05:46:00.000-06:002008-04-24T05:46:00.000-06:00Implement resilience on them and heal share. (when...Implement resilience on them and heal share. (when hunter/lock is healed, so is his pet by some %, beastmastery and demo specs having talent improvement deep in tree due pet importance to them)<BR/><BR/>Resilience being PvP change and Heal share being PvP/PvE. <BR/><BR/>And in PvE pets could be immune to some more... unfriendly boss abilities because they... well run in and out in straight line of the master/target. (Archimonde Doomfire being perfect fubar example for pets.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-16082954091288285082008-04-23T18:41:00.000-06:002008-04-23T18:41:00.000-06:00That would work, yes. Do you have another suggest...That would work, yes. Do you have another suggestion that would increase pet survivability other than that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-271317957460684242008-04-23T18:37:00.000-06:002008-04-23T18:37:00.000-06:00Ok, I get it now. I've been mainly referencing a ...Ok, I get it now. I've been mainly referencing a 2v2 viewpoint in my arguments. I didn't realize pets were dropping so fast at the high end of 3v3, as I'll admit I've not played that bracket at that level.<BR/><BR/>Having said that, are we sure that giving pets resilience, possibly more armor, and possibly more stamina is the best solution?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-86639469479689732822008-04-23T17:48:00.000-06:002008-04-23T17:48:00.000-06:00I don't believe I have ever said that Fire is any ...I don't believe I have ever said that Fire is any less deserving of a buff than Destruction is. Fire is in a very similar situation that Destruction is; it's a tree filled with PvP talents but has little PvP viability. It certainly needed more of a buff than Mutilate did (and again, I repeat: my Rogue has been Mutilate up until only very recently, for 5's).<BR/><BR/>I don't expect every spec of every class to have a place in PvP. I'm pretty damn sure that Prot, Fury, and other such specs will never see PvP viability. But if you're really going to go with the Warrior route in terms of balance (one tree for each role), then at least make that true of talent trees like Destruction and Fire, which were given changes clearly made for PvP, but have not yet been touched for an entire year.<BR/><BR/>If they truly want PvP to be a major focus of the game, they need to be on top of making changes for it. I cannot see how it can take over a year for them to think of a change to Destruction that won't trivialize PvE. They've had enough time to implement several raid dungeons and encounters and other changes, how long does it take to think of a PvP buff to a weak talent tree? The ideas are EVERYWHERE on the forums; most of them bad, some of them good.<BR/><BR/>You must not have played very much 3v3 with a Warlock during season 3 or even the better half of season 2 if you think Warlock pets take very much time to kill. I've run double melee. Felhunters die in 3-5 seconds. I've run RMP. Felhunters die in 4-6 seconds if I'm Mutilate, 6-7 seconds if I'm Hemo. I've run Warlock/Mage in 2's; Felhunter drops in a few seconds even to our completely magical DPS. And trust me, it's worth it.<BR/><BR/>So pet classes have an advantage in terms of keeping someone in combat. So what? Every class brings something to the table, but most of them don't involve having half their important options completely reliant on the survival of a pet that doesn't scale. <BR/><BR/>That's not to mention the fact that such classes (or at least Warlocks) also have a disadvantage in having terrible healer efficiency due to low mitigation of both the master and the pet. Warlocks have the worst combined mitigation/avoidance in the game, and their pets also have terrible mitigation thanks to having 0 resilience.<BR/><BR/>Warlocks have succeeded in the past, not so much Hunters. Every season of new gear introduces more DPS, but unless the gear gives Warlocks/Hunters incredible amounts of stamina and armor, pet survivability will never, ever scale. Therefore we have pets dying in 3 seconds a la double melee.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-10601266984773638122008-04-23T17:36:00.001-06:002008-04-23T17:36:00.001-06:00Imagine S10, without WotLK being out and lvl80 ava...Imagine S10, without WotLK being out and lvl80 available. One blow of a S10 weapon would kill a pet three times.<BR/>Why should the survivability of a pet from a fresh lvl70 hunter in greens be nearly the same as the one from a fully S10 decked hunter?<BR/><BR/>Hunters and warlocks share the problem of having a pet counted towards their damage/utility for balanceing issues. Although a warlock can sacrifice his pet for a buff. The hunter has no way of not using his pet without gimping himself. And yet the life time of pets in the arena gets shorter every season.<BR/><BR/>If Blizzard can not buff the hunter in the arena without making him OP in other areas, they should define the trees better. Making one absolutely crap for raids would offer the posibilty to redefine the hunters arena role and shaping talents more towards the arena.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-47980754079988279482008-04-23T17:36:00.000-06:002008-04-23T17:36:00.000-06:00Rayvik, you don't seem to understand the pet probl...Rayvik, you don't seem to understand the pet problem.<BR/><BR/>Warlocks rely on pets being alive. It doesn't matter where the pet is. The pet could be on passive the entire fight for all it matters.<BR/><BR/>The point is that, it is trivial to kill with a melee zerg. If it dies, the Warlock dies shortly after and there is nothing that the Warlock's team can do about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-72752593829705262232008-04-23T14:33:00.000-06:002008-04-23T14:33:00.000-06:00Rayvik,I hope you are not serious with your LoS an...Rayvik,<BR/><BR/>I hope you are not serious with your LoS and macro argument. If you are, please check my ratings last season (and although not so great this season, but not too bad either). If you think I've reached 2.3k+ in different brackets withouy being very aware of LoS and using macros/addons effectivly then I do not know what to tell you.<BR/><BR/>When you talk about it being my fault that the healer deagged it, I will ask you in return; did you actually play against a double melee zerg and see how they will rape you and turn to your pet and 2-shot it while your healer is helpless and your snares are ineffective?<BR/>My pet was not dragged away, my pet was in LoS of me and my healer and it was *still* 2-shotted when it reached 60% hp.<BR/><BR/>/VagueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-40027099744921535812008-04-23T10:26:00.000-06:002008-04-23T10:26:00.000-06:00Also to Vague:Does wearing PvE items in arena not ...Also to Vague:<BR/><BR/>Does wearing PvE items in arena not carry with it a risk of being easier to kill? When I was doing 5v5 extensively in S2, we won many a match by forcing the Paladin to bubble then switching to him after the bubble if we saw he was wearing PvE gear.<BR/><BR/>As for getting farmed in 5v5 by a melee zerg team, who was forcing you to continue queueing while knowing full well there was a team running a countercomp queueing at the same time? You have the choice to queue or not. I know it sucks to have to wait a few minutes when you've got you and your teammates ready to go. But clearly you have the power to not continue to beat your collective heads into an obvious brick wall.<BR/><BR/>Gary, the Rogue would need Expose Armor were your Priest not Shadow. Again, you've made a tradeoff between being able to blow up Warriors or being able to survive an aggressive Rogue. This would hold true in 3v3 as well, although Locks tend to partner better with Druids in that bracket.<BR/><BR/>To the anonymous directly above my first post in this trio:<BR/><BR/>34/0/27 is arguably better for the Drd in Rog/Drd 2v2 than any heavy Resto variant. Affliction is the support tree for Warlocks, just as Arcane is for Mages. Assassination is for Mutilate, and as I stated before, Mutilate still finds success in the hands of those who prefer the style. As for Shadow being mediocre, I'm sure Noxn, a Shadow Priest who briefly held the top spot on SK's Top 100 Overall (he was 2500+ in all three brackets) would strongly disagree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-40096085265108803552008-04-23T09:58:00.000-06:002008-04-23T09:58:00.000-06:00To add, I did miss the reversion of the Drain Mana...To add, I did miss the reversion of the Drain Mana buff. My mistake.<BR/><BR/>Vague, I'll restate my position that what pets bring to the table should carry with it a significant risk. As it stands, in 2v2 and to a lesser extent in 3v3, a pet set on the opposing team's healer means that healer will not drink unless the opposing team specifically takes time (a very important commodity in arena play) to somehow deal with it. <BR/><BR/>What this means is that the team with the pet class is at an advantage in both terms of time and mana as soon as the gates open just by running a pet class in their comp. That's significant. So much so that, in my opinion, it should require both a skilled healer and a skilled controller of the pet in order to maintain the advantage. Pets should not be a fire-and-forget solution to the issue of keeping a healer in combat so he can't drink, not to mention the added dps (admittedly small) and abilities.<BR/><BR/>The bottom line is that pet classes have succeeded in the past and will continue to succeed going forward without the requested survivability scaling changes. Big deal if they're relatively easy to kill. If your pet does die, I venture that it was your own fault for letting their healer drag it out of line of sight and make it vulnerable to being killed. Had you mircro'd properly and called it back when you saw what its target was trying to do, more than likely it could have been saved. This is how it should be because of what a pet means to a given arena match. Playing a pet class, you know that at some point the opposing team is more than likely going to try to kill your pet. It's on you and your healer to keep that from happening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-8878230735738580332008-04-23T07:15:00.000-06:002008-04-23T07:15:00.000-06:00Baek, Blizzard has stated that they seek to have t...Baek, Blizzard has stated that they seek to have two arena-viable SPECS for each class for arena, not necessarily two arena-viable TREES. Warlocks have SL/SL and Felguard. I don't see an issue with both specs featuring a common talent. Some classes derive their specs from different trees and some don't. So long as there's still a choice to make (Sipon Life or Felguard), I don't see an issue.<BR/><BR/>Look at Mages. They have the same choice; 17/0/44 or 0/6/55. Both specs feature Water Elemental. Having played a Mage to over 2k 5v5 in S2 and as a main since release up until recently, I don't see an issue with it. I always knew that if I wanted to PvP I needed to be Frost, and if I wanted to raid optimally I needed to be something else. It's the same with many classes.<BR/><BR/>Again, I think it's unreasonable to expect all mainstream specs of each class to be arena-viable. As long as there are choices and trade-offs to be made, even if the choices are derived from a common talent tree, enough variety exists to keep the game interesting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-32658046812828219262008-04-22T18:20:00.000-06:002008-04-22T18:20:00.000-06:00Rayvik: What about specs that are neither competit...Rayvik: What about specs that are neither competitive in arena or high end raiding? Boomkin, Affliction, Assassination, etc. Seems like they would be the prime candidates for buffage. Even Shadowpriests have become pretty mediocre in the arena what with Rogues/Warriors how they are and their damage falls way behind in endgame where DoTs don't scale like they should(utility considered, they're either extremely OP in Kara, extremely weak in BT, or somewhere in between.) An adjustment needs to be made.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-15060072184955576202008-04-22T16:14:00.000-06:002008-04-22T16:14:00.000-06:00Rayvik, yeah I beat the warrior teams easy enough,...Rayvik, yeah I beat the warrior teams easy enough, but rogues are another story if it's a good rogue + healer or rogue + rogue combo. Doesn't even need expose armor to destroy my 2v2, but rogues do counter DoT classes to a very large extent, so this isn't exactly a surprise. Rogues don't need expose armor to kill cloth. It just makes it 20% easier. My experience is limited to mainly 2v2, so take what I say with a grain of salt.Sekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08116188475014641373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-21938110738604253012008-04-22T15:47:00.000-06:002008-04-22T15:47:00.000-06:00I'm sorry Rayvik, but if you think pets should not...I'm sorry Rayvik, but if you think pets should not receive some sort of suvivability scaling then you are either not playing high end arena with a lock or you are just too biased. Imagine if they told you that your char would receive armor and resiliance buffs as you gear up more, unless they attack you from the side in which case the armor and resiliance buffs don't apply. This is the same thing for pets; locks scale with their gear including defensive stats such as armor and resiliance while pets don't (think of a pet as an extension to the character).<BR/><BR/>I have said it before and I will say it again; don't you find it ironic that some classes can throw in some pve items such as weapons and some armor pieces and still get away with it in arena even at the highest end arena matches while warlocks are forced to go max pvp items (and sometimes get items that are not even for their class such as armor rings/cloak) to be able to compete?<BR/><BR/>We got farmed in 5v5 and now dropped below 2k rating just because of the influx of melee zerg teams. And guess who they zerg everytime with no change in tactic?, yup; the warlock.<BR/><BR/>/VagueAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-89545436405758265742008-04-22T15:11:00.000-06:002008-04-22T15:11:00.000-06:00There is still a population of Rogues who spec Mut...There is still a population of Rogues who spec Mutilate for RMP. If anything, the biggest reason to spec ShS for it is to better deal with mirror matches, which are common. Yes, most Rogues spec ShS. However, Mutilate is still a competitive spec and it got buffed, and therefore melees were buffed.<BR/><BR/>You tell me about Mage/Rogue combinations, yet how many Mage/Rogue teams actually exist at the top tier? There's a number of them at 2k+, but they're nowhere near as common as Druid/DPS or Priest/Rogue. Yet, you still regard them as significant.<BR/><BR/>The whole concept of tiers/overpoweredness in any game deals with how well the game's environment caters towards a certain class/race/character. For ewxample, Jin was overpowered in Tekken 4 because Tekken 4 was all about pokes, and Jin had the best pokes by far. If the nature of 2v2 and 3v3 allows for Druids to dominate the healer slot for both of those brackets, then Druids are overpowered in 2v2 and 3v3.<BR/><BR/>The DoTs vs resilience thing was obviously a nerf meant to directly hit SP's and Warlocks. I believe that nerf was justified; every form of damage in PvP should have to scale with the primary defensive PvP stat. The nerf affected everybody that has a DoT (which is just about every class in the game?), but it affects some classes much more than others. Just like if a nerf were made to make melee range a pixel in front of the character, every class would be affected, but melees would be hurt the most (and no, I do not support such a ridiculous nerf).<BR/><BR/>I never said that mana drains are irrelevant after 2.4. Drain Mana's buff was very quickly reverted, but I'm sure that you were just testing me. Mana Burn itself received a nerf because of PI. Haste doesn't even affect VS, and Drain Mana would've gone out of style anyways thanks to melee buffs.<BR/><BR/>Warlocks are pretty much forced to spec Demo. Most of Demo's decent talents rely on the survivability of a 0 resilience, 6k hp pet. We're not dealing with a risk, we're dealing with an already fragile class that relies on an extremely fragile pet to survive in PvP. But clearly you'll never change your opinion, so I'll just leave it there.<BR/><BR/>Warlocks have one viable talent tree: Demonology. Give us two, thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-13025537955965744102008-04-22T14:11:00.000-06:002008-04-22T14:11:00.000-06:00At this point, speculation as to the dynamics of S...At this point, speculation as to the dynamics of S4 is exactly that: speculation. Who knows what they're going to do about the current effectiveness of melee zerging and the impact that melee scaling/armor ignore has had on arena in all brackets. I'm sure they're aware that there is a problem, but we are certainly in no position to go all Chicken Little about it right now without even seeing solid info on S4 gear.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I find Mage/Rogue to be a very effective 2v2 comp, only struggling against Lock/Rogue as a true counter. I know at least 5 Mages on my server that got their shoulders and weapons with it. Watch Vilden's videos to see how effective it is.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, but as you can see from my earlier posts, I can't get on board with giving pets more survivability. But thank you for proving my point regarding how to deal with Druid dominance; run a comp that can outdamage Druid healing capabilities or just outright kill the Druid (as Mage/Rogue does).<BR/><BR/>As for 2k+ rated Warriors and Rogues not using Sunder/Expose, you beat those teams, right? What can you say about people who get carried by stronger players other than the problem exists in every team sport?<BR/><BR/>How is it evident that melee is going to be much more problematic than they are now? Are the slightly higher stats, resil, crit, attack power, and armor ignore somehow going to magically make melee classes harder to cc? I don't think so. And, if you're playing at 2k+, I'm sure you understand that the best way to shut down a melee class is to cc them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-91508302932694604402008-04-22T12:14:00.000-06:002008-04-22T12:14:00.000-06:00Rayvik, the doomsday sayings are predictions of Se...Rayvik, the doomsday sayings are predictions of Season 4 rather than the current state of Season 3.<BR/><BR/>Cloth casters are still competitive in all brackets (sans mages in 2v2). Despite a few things that irk me (pets not scaling with resilience, Fel Armor has effective dispel resistence), it is far from hopeless. Hell, I've been having fun trying out Warlock + Shadow Priest for the first time since Season 2 and absolutely destroying Warrior + Druid teams. I would complain about sunder armor/expose armor if I would actually encounter warriors/rogues that used their respective abilities more than once every 20~ games or so, even 2000+ rated.<BR/><BR/>I am worried about Season 4 though, as it is evident melee is going to be much more problematic than they are now. I reserve any conclusive judgment until after season 4 comes out.Sekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08116188475014641373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-57759111155450168412008-04-22T12:01:00.000-06:002008-04-22T12:01:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08116188475014641373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-28571896944011933302008-04-22T11:59:00.000-06:002008-04-22T11:59:00.000-06:00Rayvik, you took the words right out of my mouth. ...Rayvik, you took the words right out of my mouth. Except for one thing: The drain mana buffs that warlocks received on PTR was reverted before it went live. It's still 200/tick. :PSamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00384554437096427217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-52052100613483283302008-04-22T11:44:00.000-06:002008-04-22T11:44:00.000-06:00The Mutilate buff in 2.4 is irrelevant because a M...The Mutilate buff in 2.4 is irrelevant because a Mutilate Rogue doesn't have the mobility of a Shadowstep Rogue, nor can they be as aggressive with cooldown use. Again, there's a reason the vast majority of the top rated Rogues in the world are 20/0/41 Shadowstep/Vile Poisons, even ones playing in RMP comps. What you give up when you spec Mutilate just isn't worth it compared to what Shadowstep offers, and the statistics fully support my opinion. Yes, Mutilate will fit the playstyle of certain players better and will therefore be successful in the hands of those players, but that is clearly the exception rather than the rule. <BR/><BR/>My point regarding Druid dominance in 3v3 was that savvy teams are now either running comps that outdamage Druid healing capabilities or comps that are specifically designed to lock down and kill a Druid. If the trend continues, Druid dominance will wane as teams adapt to the new dynamic. But just because a class is dominant doesn't mean said class is necessarily overpowered. It can mean that the current dynamic of a given format lends itself more to the strengths of said class, and it may be a different, less obvious element that is causing the imbalance rather than the class design itself. <BR/><BR/>For example, look at Warlocks during the midpoint of S2 before Resilience was changed to affect DoT damage. The class was so dominant that people were running double Warlock in 5v5. Yet rather than nerf the shit out of the class to pacify the flood of tears on the forums, they adjusted an aspect of the game that was not directly class related while making very minor adjustments to the class itself. 2.4 did the same with Druid, and now the dynamic in 3v3 has shifted such that the possibility exists for certain comps to make Druids a non-factor. Rogue/Elemental Shaman/Shadow Priest does just that. People just have to be willing to think outside the box and try new comps.<BR/><BR/>Regarding mana drains, I'm sorry, but if you think that they're completely irrelevant after 2.4, I completely disagree. The problem wasn't just that they pressured healer mana. The problem was that, combined with the various Spell Haste effects becoming more and more common, they pressured healer mana TOO MUCH. Especially Mana Burn itself. Thus Mana Burn was the only spell of the three (Viper Sting, Drain Mana, Mana Burn) to receive a direct nerf on top of the Resilience adjustment. Also, if you recall, Drain Mana actually got buffed to slightly offset the Resilience change. I feel that you're unable to see the big picture of arena balance as a whole if you can't see why this change was needed.<BR/><BR/>Why play a Warlock then? Yep, they're totally obsolete. I mean, look at the top rated 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 comps in the world. NONE of them contain a Warlock. Not a single one. Except the complete opposite of what I just said. I've already explained my position on pets in my previous post; there should be considerable risk involved in maintaining a pet throughout the course of a match considering what they bring to the table.<BR/><BR/>As for buffs to non-PvP-viable talent trees, Blizzard has already stated that they seek to have one or two builds for each class be viable for arena PvP. Expecting every possible variation of every spec of every class in the game is completely unreasonable. Certain specs will be better for PvE and others better for PvP. It's been this way since day one, except certain classes didn't even have ONE spec that was good enough. Now nearly every class has at least two specs that are arena viable. It's fine, L2P. =PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4863412955392305799.post-6952078249992965572008-04-22T06:31:00.000-06:002008-04-22T06:31:00.000-06:00Maso you are right on as usual. How is it not an ...Maso you are right on as usual. How is it not an indirect buff to Melee who "drain mana" by doing damage and applying a healing debuff to nerf direct mana drains? The result is clearly that Melee will drain a healer's mana much faster as well as cause more pressure and have more opportunities for outright kills because of their burst and healing debuffs. Warlocks on the other hand have a whopping 3 DoTs ticking and a Mana Drain ticking for 150 mana/second. Pathetic. <BR/><BR/>This seems so clear to me, but I'm sure for Blizzard it's just one issue in a sea of problems and they are very slow to react. It would also seem logical that since Locks/Priests have had capped resilience since S1, and that melee damage has increased, that the relative survivability of said cloth classes would decrease with time. Also, Drain Nerfs didn't help either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com