Saturday, July 26, 2008

PvP, Mobility, and the lackluster Anti-Magic Shell

I wrote up a little post about some test duels I had with Lemonayd on the beta. I covered all the main points on the beta forums. Please feel free to ask any questions about it here, though. I know a lot of people are reading this that aren't in the beta, so ask away.


Anonymous said...

What is your crit? 13%?

Anonymous said...

i think it would realy help if death grip also applied a 3s snare or something

Anonymous said...

Was that S3 the lock was wearing? I don't remember the color variation from T6, but the shaman was wearing kara gear and wasn't fighting back, it's still pretty good how quick you were able to take him down. As for kiting classes, why don't you try out the Rune that gives a chance to stun and cause fire damage? Maybe DW the Rune?

Of course, not every spec will beat every other spec in PvP...

Leiah said...

That rune enchant of which you speak, lichbane, only works against undead.

Rob said...

Hmm, are ghouls any use for this type of situation? From what I've read (not entirely positive it'd apply anymore since beta changes have been about) Ghouls have a Stun / Pummel ability...with a 5min cd and 2min duration (longer w/ talents) I'd like to see how some things work with it.

Granted, I don't think having a 5min CD and pet would solve all the problems heh.

From what I've seen from the duels, Antimagic needs a load of help to even be viable. If anything it should be undispellable and absorb a ton of damage, but have a short duration.

Just tossing out some numbers, but maybe 7000 - 8000dmg, lasting 10s, and has a 30 - 40s CD. Numbers could use some work, but that's the general idea...

Also, the Death Grip applying a snare would be a good idea too. Talented it has what, a 25s CD? I can see a 60 - 70% snare for 6 - 8s being reasonable.

Alrenous said...

Also, there doesn't seem to be much you can do as a warrior to not get kited by mages.

While yes, I think the classes should be better balanced, it's consistent, at least.

On the other hand I bet intercept without a stun would be pretty gimped too.

Xathras said...

That's just not right. Even if the 'lock is wearing full S3 a DK should be able to give him a challenge.
How do hunters fare in PvP against a DK? I'd imagine it's probably fairly even if not in favor of the DK with death grip and diseases.
Also, thanks for posting the videos and such. I keep hoping that Blizzard's RNG will give me an invite but I doubt it will happen. I'll just keep reading the forums and your blog until live.

Naman said...

When I first heard about Anti-Magic Shell I was thinking something akin to the ability the Banshees in Hyjal have. But right now, it seems even less effective than grounding totem, has a longer cooldown, last only 3 seconds!?! and doesn't even absorb a full spell effect. Then you have to dump 5 talent points in it for a very minor improvement. I mean, is the 5% less damage from spells even noticeable.

I would think AMS should either work like grounding totem, or be more like a shiled that lasts, 15 to 30 seconds or until it absorbs x amount of damage. And in raid encounters AMZ seems like 10k absorption will go in one shot. For a 6 point low tier talent ability, I just don't see it.

Beyond this, Blizzard has claimed Death Knights are to be the magic tank... I still am waiting to see how we stack up better than a prot warrior.

I guess we have 3 spell interrupts? With Chains of Ice, Chillbrains and Death Grip, but with their associated cooldowns, I'm not so sure this is any better than pummel, kick or earth shock.

Not in beta, just guessing and might be totally off. But as of now, the Death Knight will suffer the same PvP mobility of an Enhance Shaman.

Leiah said...

Worse, actually. En Shamans now have spectral transformation as well.

Alrenous said...

As long as I'm just messing around...

Frost Coil: Exactly what it sounds like.

It seems to me that if a DK ever meets something with shadow immunity, the DK is just going to have a heart attack unless they're deep frost.

This partially addresses that plus the mobility issue plus it just sounds cool.

Leiah said...

Hm. Not exactly. We still have a healthy mix of frost, physical, shadow and even nature damage in the form of some of our diseases.

I really wanted frost strike replaced with an ability that cost a fixed amount of RP that would cause all of the DKs strikes to be in the form of frost damage for a duration. That would have been the ultimate solution in synergy, but I don't think they're going with it. :(

Alrenous said...

What diseases do nature damage?

Briahn said...

Thanks as always for your informative feedback and posts.

Do you get the sense that the developers may be considering expanding the snare capabilities of the DK? I think all PvP builds would need to spec at least to Chillblains, which will lock out the deep parts of Blood and Unholy. I have seen you suggest moving this sooner in the tree or adjusting the mechanic somehow, but I have yet to see any responses from devs on the subject. Of course, I am currently a beta "outsider" so I may have missed something.

Anonymous said...

I have the idea that the developers have a goal for the DK, that will be forced down our throats no matter how gimped their stuck-up "we r blizz we know better" mindset is.

Looking at some of the Frost talents, and now these spells that would actually be awesome to use if they worked, pretty much confirms just that.

Fun to freeze targets, yeah... but not once a blue moon with a Heroic Strike clone based on a % chance AND a Frost Rune cost.

Bill said...

Thank you for the PvP video. 2 quick questions when you have the time:

1. Can you use Lichborne when under the effects of fear. From your video I take that as a yes but want to ask to be sure.

2. Also, I don’t know if you have tested this or not but when you have Lichborne up, can you then be affected by Pally/Priest spells? IE Turn Evil/Exorcism/Shackle?

Again thank you :)

Anonymous said...

Hey Leiah

i've read the newest post of Ghost with the changes to Frost Strike etc..

could you somehow get a blue answer how this whole freeze stuff should work on bosses?

Bosses usually are not freezable..
It would be awesome if the freeze was just a sideeffect but we gain some sort of unique debuff (frozen to the core) or something similar so our synergies keep working when fighting freeze immune bosses..


Anonymous said...

Lets all say "'ELLO" to the 'bane of all casters , and the ultimate anti-caster tank' - death knight ... really? of for the love of god if that was true than you should have torn that warlock appart with the jaws of his own felhunter !!!

1, anti-magic shiled , make it a "bubble" , makes you take only 25% (down to 0% if talented) spell dmg from ALL sources . Castable while silenced (heck , ist a anti-magic thingy , why should magic from a mortal have power over it?) . Indipselleble (viz. comment on silence effects on it a bit up) . And could give immunity ar 70% resist chance to non-damaging magic effects . Last 4-6 sec. 20 min cd . 1 unholy rune

2, Ghoul . was supposed to be a "mark of the class" (--Blizzard , some time last year , no joke) . Ok, change corpse dust mechanic . If the are NO humanoid corpses , it will consume the dust insetad , tranzlation ? Youd dont need the corpse to summon it . Dust is enough ;)

3, Give Plague strike a slowing effect . I dont have to explain this on , do I ?

4, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD !! Is Bone armor realy cositng 1 unholy rune ?! Or are the web calculators off-time-info ? It shoudl be 1 frost !
--- THEORY : different type build shoudl have use for rune of other types (like this on - unholy has use for a frost rune)
back to BA - and reduce it to a 20 sec cooldown.

5, mind freeze , a spell , 5yd range . AND I fought 10yd fro judgement as a spell was laughpable ... gues I was wrong . Bat'cha well se 0zd spells next expansion .

6. AND the most improtent point !!!! WHERE IN THE HELLS OF BLIZZARD s DEV. BUILDING IS UNHOLY EMBRACE ?!?(caps is intended)

P.s. - Leiah would you mind to react to my post ? Just , after reading those comments on the forum links I grew to respect your opinions on DKs.

-- Sithril (Lord of lazyness)

Anonymous said...

Wait, so you are hoping for AMS to pretty much duplicate cloak of the shadows?

Anonymous said...

I appologise for all the miss-spelling on my previous comment . It's 23:30 at my town already . And when I type in a bit of anger I miss-pell a lot . But no excueses !

-- Sithril

Anonymous said...

You were pretty close vs the Warlock. Just a few tweeks and you're fine.

Once you had the dots stacked on you, it was over.

Yet, you whooped that shaman. Is that normal? Buff Shamans?

Anonymous said...

will there be a class that can beat warlock easily?

if the answer is yes... i don't find any class that is more suitable other than deathknight...

i m tired of warlocks having fun in pvp... it is time to take them down

Anonymous said...

-5s death grip from pvp set bonus
+3s snare after deathgrip
+chains of ice not 100% breaking on dmg
+icy touch built in snare
and we will be pretty good i guess

Anonymous said...

AMS should do something vs dots
first i think duration should be buffed to 5s atleast and changed to physical school/effect(can be used while silenced/cannot be dispeled)
When u get hit by dot with AMS up the dmg it will do should be reduced by 75-100%(depends if talented or not) or the duration of the dot reduced by the same ammount
for example if corruption would normaly deal 1000dmg over 18s then with AMS up it would either deal 250dmg over 18s or 250dmg over 4.5s depends which is easier to code i guess
If u have dots on you already and u activate AMS dot dmg should be reduced for the duration of AMS(1-2ticks)

Anonymous said...

unholy and frost aura bonus resistances are also still very weak considering how deep they are in the tree and that +64 will probably be around the base spell penetration casters will be running around in wotlk and comparing em with the new pala auras giving +130resist to the whole group

Mani said...

Sam, please consider arena and fights that are not 1v1 when giving feedback. The major issue that warlocks and to a lesser extent mages have today against melee classes when it comes to kiting is not based on 1v1 but based on GvG. When you have 2 classes that have 50% chance of keeping their caster target in range, the two will make him 100% in range making it impossible to escape.

The reason rogues are wrecking most teams that have a warlock in them in 3v3 is because rogues were given decent anti-kite abilities with the 1v1 mindset, but the addition of another class to the rogue it becomes an imbalanced forumla with the caster having someone on him 100% of the time.

I am not saying a caster should be able to kite 1v2 as he still has 2 partners to assist him, but I'm saying just consider this when you give feedback please.

mordo/pzarr said...

Dont feel like reading the other comments at the moment as it's late, but frankly i dont think Unholy is going to be the premier pvp build for DK's. I hear that frost atm has some issues, mainly w/the rune usesage and how 'exclusive' the tree is to just frost abilities, but have you worked w/that at all? Seems like the extra snares would make up for some(but not all) of the issues w/kiting.

Lucrece said...

That restoration shaman was awful.

Trust me, you won't be able to kill a good one, especially if he's PvP geared.

Earth Shield is there to survive the silences. The rest is faking heals, and kiting you with frost shock and hex to death.

The problem with the warlock was not that he kited you so much; it's Drain Life. That spell is absurd. It heals for as much as a healer's HoT's, but it also does the same amount of damage healed to you at the same time.

Put that together with Health Stone, Death Coil, and high, persistent damage, and currently only Rogues and Hunters have a chance of beating SL/SL Locks.

Anonymous said...

i still think its funny that you in greens are able to put over 3k dmg (the combo might have some cooldown, but still, a warlock with equivalent gear would really feel the pain) in a toon with the current top pvp gear. Something that in my pally, with over 2k AP, i only dream of .. and maybe it happens with AW + trinkets + god's will ..

honestly, i'd like to see some pvp in equivalent gear ..

he wouldn't do that much dmg to you, and you would deal way more dmg on him .. i belive this would make a really big difference ..

Anonymous said...

Make Icy Touch snare?

Leiah said...

Make icy touch snare? Did you not even look at the build I used?

Derekeen4 said...

I'm not sure what the difference is between you and the warlock are as far as level and gear goes. If there is a difference though, should the warlock's advantage of spell penetration, dmg, and to hit overcome the mitigation of the Anti-Magic Shell? Can any of those bonuses cancel out the effects of the shell or the AM-Zone, or is the mitigation suppose to happen no matter the difference in gear and/or level?

Ashanor said...

I agree with Death Grip applying a short snare. It would kind of be the opposite of Shadowstep. Shadowstep ports to target and gives a 3 second speed boost, Death Grip pulls target to you and gives them a 3 second speed reduction. Makes sense to me.