Sunday, September 21, 2008

Another video

Of this spec in action.

Link.

Track list:
Junkie XL feat. Saffron - Beauty Never Fades
Junkie XL - Mushroom
John B Mix (dont remember title)

And yet another, this time with a prot warrior for 2s fun.

Video #2
Coldplay - Talk Remix (Think it was gabriel and dresden?)

At this point, I'm going to go ahead and say something selfish: It sure does feel nice to play a class that shits all over rogues for once.

Someone asked me some pretty good questions after watching that second video. Here's my response if you're so inclined.


Q u o t e:
Just a few questions for you Jayde.

Do you plan on taking SS once it gets fixed? (Think its a bug, unless GC confirmed its intended)
And Wandering Plague when its fixed?


Maybe. We'll see how good they end up being.


Q u o t e:
I'm also assuming you're taking the death runes to get either more CoI's up or get 2 Death Strikes in a row.


Correct, among other things. It's really just to open up flexibility for what I can do. Multiple chains, blood boils, plague strikes to strip hots or charge night of the dead, death strikes, etc. It makes pvping with the current rune system feel more dynamic and less restrictive, which is hard to quantify over a straight DPS talent. At times, it doesn't do any good. At other times, it's completely invaluable having a stack of death runes to pull off abnormal combos.




Q u o t e:
Would you still take these talents if you were running DK/Healer?


Doubt it. I always shake up my builds depending on my role and who I'm playing with. This is optimal for double DPS, though.

DK survivability is way too good in pvp. I don't care what anyone says. It needs to be toned down without affecting our ability to tank in PvE, and our damage/burst needs to come up.



Q u o t e:
And wtf do you do if you face a lock that loves their fear button? No Lichborne means you rely on your trinket and AMS. Also skipping Icy Reach hurts too.


You'll see, soon enough. I'm in the middle of compiling a pretty good dueling video right now. Locks of ANY spec do not stand a chance. So what if I get feared? What are they going to do? Kill me? Heh. No my friend, they can't. It's literally impossible unless I simply go AFK. Besides, you have combos that you can setup such as mind freeze > strangulate > AMS. That's a very long time being unable to do jack. And by then, mind freeze is back, you still have ghoul stun, AMS is almost up again. Lichborne is simply overkill vs locks, and is completely unnecessary. You'll see what I mean.

As far as icy reach, I wouldn't get too comfortable with a 30 yard range on it. I'm not sure how long it's range is going to last. It needs to come down to at least 15 yards, if anything.


Q u o t e:
I find your build interesting, I watched yoru vid, its kinda scary how well you can survive and how long you last. I can see why for 2dps teams, but healer/dps, I'd think getting few more talents in Frost and less talents in Blood would work. Dunno, just speculation. I just honestly think you've sacrificed too many talents just to get MoB. yes its nice, especially against rogues if you're running 2dps.


Mark of blood is underrated at the moment. It's actually effective given the cooldown now, and it's not dispelable (or at least rogues can't cloak it off). It's actually more handy to put it on targets that are beating on my partner, since I only need it in dire circumstances.

I feel like the new SL/SL lock without a counter. No single player can kill me as this spec in pvp. Nothing.

54 comments:

El Diablo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
El Diablo said...

been watching your video's an following the DK class thus far an it seems pretty amazing. has there been no single definitive tank build best suited for raiding or 5 mans yet? as i have seen so far with everything it seems to me the 3 trees having their own tanking styles would just depend on that players play/tank style an thus various different Tank builds. I doubt i will have much to worry about in reguards to tanking until i hit 70 or 71 since not many people will be running around in outlands anymore, but maybe by then there will be something more solid as far as tanking goes. I been looking at the unholy tree just for all the raw AE dmg i see from it really, reminds me of a tankadin heh just way more fun ^_^

Daniel said...

Seems like you did better with that spec. Also, I noticed something healing you and socio in the first few matches pretty significantly. Is that the rune tap?

Off the DK point, but appears Socio did alot better as Demo than he was doing as destro in your previous video. Kinda sad that all the lock specs are still pretty weak. Does he every try a 54/17/0 spec with you in the arena?

Gritonic

Mike said...

Was that you on murmur the second half?

BTW what mod is that?

Anonymous said...

what do you think about a 7 19 45 build?

like this one:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2303021503000000000000000000052000000000000000000000000230032305003110253151003100100

Anonymous said...

damn link got nuked by the comment system ^^ here it is again, just put it together:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/
?deathknight=2303021503000000

Destrado said...

If your taking requests :P, i would like to see a video of this spec http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jZ0gxzhedMhoZfMGI0bkxeoo0o

seemed more of a spell based spec. focusing on bloodboil,(if 30% reduced speed is there yet)

Remnint said...

hey Jayde what was the name of the song u used towards the end of the vid? it was awesome pvp vid song

Destrado said...

I lied, rime just didn't seem as good as endless winter. not sure if its even viable since frost dps is kinda in the shitter now.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jZ0gxzhtdMcobZfMGI0bkxeoo0o

Anonymous said...

Could you give the names of all the songs you used in this video (second)? I'd appreciate it. :) Great video!

Anonymous said...

Hey I was wondering if you could try out a frost build in arena. From the looks of it, it has alot of versatility and would just like to hear a pros opinion on it :)
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jfcMqcZGgxzhxzMIofost

Minigun said...

Hey NV, have you used Dark Command in pvp at all? I've been a little interested to how it works because the way it's described. Is it JUST like taunt, or does it force the person to target you?

Jayde said...

It's just like Taunt. It works on pets like any other taunt, though.

How do you know me by that name, anyways? :)

Oscabo said...

I feel like its Christmas every time I log on your site and there is a new video posted. I'm pathetic, but nice videos! Thanks again for being vocal and showing all of us not in beta so much of the game we're all looking forward to.

Anonymous said...

how can i see those videos from filefront?

it said: the video no longer available...

Jayde said...

Not sure. They both work for me. :(

accident said...

Yeah, to above poster, it does feel like Christmas when he has a new video up. I check his blog daily. >.<

So when this goes live i'm sure you'll have a new Death Knight as a main. What comps are you looking forward to trying out with the DK? Are you making a Human?

fishbot said...

yeah,w as gonna ask that. for arena why not undead? is wotf really not needed? wot class would u recommend horde side for pure arena

Jayde said...

WotF is not necessary. I'm impartial to blood elves and night elves. :(

accident said...

I do really love Night Elf animations, but Human just seems like it has the most benefits as a Death Knight right now. Though the specializations have been nerfed, they will still be nice, free trinket slot, and passive perception.

Compared to the %1 dodge(lol) and Shadowmeld...which can be used in combat now, but it has to long of a cooldown imo to make any game breaking use.

I really wish Alliance animations wern't so awful though, human's look like they have a stick up their ass when they are running. Belf DK's are just amazing looking. =\

Jayde said...

It isn't 1% dodge anymore.

Night Elf
- Quickness: reduces the chance to be hit by melee or ranged attacks by 2%

- Nature Resistance: reduces the chance to be hit by Nature spells by 3%

accident said...

Mhm your right. I fail. :(

I've been pretty split on rolling my DK with either race, but it's leaning quite heavily towards a human because of the racials for PVP. shrug.

Vailor said...

U need to post the music tracks lol

Anonymous2 said...

I honestly don't understand how you can run a hybrid spec that sacrifices dmg/burst at the expense of survivability and then claim your survivability is too high and your burst/dmg is too low.

The blood/unholy spec is very similar to one I like and use specifically to fill the role of support/0.5 healer in certain situations. As you've seen it performs pretty well in that role, but has obvious weaknesses.

If what you want is more burst/dmg and less survivability then give up AMZ and Bone armor and go deeper into blood. Grab hysteria for some additional burst dps (you or partner depending on team/situation), possibly grab sudden doom (it will get better and adds to burst) grab heart strike, maybe grab bloody strikes and MoM, and certainly grab DRW. All of these talents will increase your dmg/burst at the expense of your survivability.

There are several things still being tweaked and a couple bugs with DKs atm, so it's hard to talk about some changes without seeing what is getting fixed and where numbers will go to. However, to specifically take a build that trades damage for survivability and then claim your damage is too low and your survivability is too high seems very silly to me.

There are obviously some changes that need to be made, and some that are already slatted as happening. For now if you want to shift the balance from survivability to dmg/burst why don't you adjust your spec to do just that?

Also, most of the people in the videos are playing horrible and better/more experienced players will make several easy adjustments very quickly.

This isn't to say dps isn't too low (it admittedly is on several skills/abilities already due for adjustments), or that survivability doesn't potentially need tweaking. However, to use the given build and fight such teams doesn't present a reasonable basis for such a claim.

Anonymous said...

hi, if it doesn't bother you too much, could you please give us the names of the music titles in the arena2+3 videos? i find myself very entertained by your track selection. thanks in advance and keep up the awesomeness.

Anonymous said...

I dissagree, DK survivability is no more or less then a Hunter or Rogure really. They just have different skill set for that survivability.

Anonymous said...

For a H2 DK and for pvp only , don't you think the Troll race can be better? 15% reduction on movement impairing effect is better than a silence and a RP generation no?

Schadenfrede said...

Hey, Jayde! Thanks for all the work and time you've put into testing and working with this class. Its good to find someone who is looking to balance the class, as opposed to either overbuffing or overnerfing it.

In addition to the request for a tracklist for the Arena 2 and 3 vids, could you give a link to the rune timer/RP gauge you have at the mid-bottom of your screen?

Anonymous said...

i know it has been said - but a track listing would make my day - really digging a few of those tracks

nice work

Anonymous said...

Dear Jayde,
first of all I think you are either completely retarded, or at least extremely stupid. Since I am from EU, I cant post on your US forums to trash your retarded theorycrafting to oblivion, so I am posting here.

1- You said that "unholy presence is better for dps and pvp". are you imbecile ? white dmg stays same, the 15% movement speed you already have from aura as unholy, while your runes are not refreshed faster for your specials to be in par. So what you get finally, 15% more dmg on specials and 2% heal vs 0.5 gcd ? Is there even a contest vs those 2 ? No, its not. warriors are doing fine without 1.0 gcd.

2. You think that "DK has too many defensive abilities and too cheap". Newsflash retard, they dont have MS or 15 sec intercept. The dmg they pump vs warriors is weaker too. Why would anyone team with me when they could team with a rogue or warrior if my survavibility is worse then theirs ? See, again you dont know what you say, because you are either biased or idiot.

3. "At this point, I'm going to go ahead and say something selfish: It sure does feel nice to play a class that shits all over rogues for once."

Seriously, are you having Down Syndrome or ? Because only a retarded imbecile with absolutely ZERO knowledge over WoW could tell this.
1st of all - ANY EQUAL GEARED ROGUE WILL PISS ON YOU AND YOUR ANCESTORS FROM 3 KM. DK IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE AN ANTI ROGUE CLASS. UNTILL YOU HAVE A MOVE THAT DEAL HIGH DAMAGE AND CANT BE DODGED, YOU WILL SUCK VS THEM. PERIOD.

4. You linked a spec for pvp...the worse I saw in the latest 6 months. a combo between blood and unholy... no lichborne, no black ice, no toughness, no nothing. And there are people who listen to you...thats the sad part.

and yes, I am one guy from EU who was gladiator in all seasons as a rogue, playing always as Mutilate, aka the hardest spec. Who are you again, Jayde? What you had acomplished apart of being able to post on US forums ? because you see, I know about 100 guys who would love to piss in public on your theories and statements, and they would've done it if you wouldnt been protected by US.

Fuck you, you fucking fuck. I hope you get Obama as president, you dont deserve smth better.

Dreadhawk said...

Time to turn off anonymous again.


Keep up the good work Jayde.

Jayde said...

No, no. Anonymous people can make themselves look as dumb as they want. That's fine. It's actually pretty entertaining. :)

Anonymous said...

Jayde, I liked your videos.

I agree with what you say that your DPS is low, and your survivability is high, but isn't that just what you specced for?

Maybe talents for DPS are too poor high in the DK trees, and the mark of blood + rune tap might be too low in the blood tree in combination with unholy talents.

Imo, I wouldn't like to see any nerf to any talent or ability, rather move them a bit around in the trees, so it's still possible to get them.

Oh, and you didn't have that great survivability, you got killed quite often in the arena fights there.

David said...

I'm going to go ahead and agree with the anonymous poster above--I hope you get Obama as president. I'm not sure who he was. but he sure seems mad that nobody is paying attention to his opinions!

My personal favorite argument is #1, where he argues that blood aura is better than unholy aura because "warriors are doing fine without 1.0 gcd."

A close runner up is "because you see, I know about 100 guys who would love to piss in public on your theories and statements, and they would've done it if you wouldnt been protected by US." Glad to see the Atlantic Ocean comin' in handy yet again!

At any rate, I was wondering why you chose 1pt. Abomination's Might over scourge strike?

Jayde said...

That build is old. I'm not using it anymore.

I prefer this one by far: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0sI00oZ0LZfMGI0bkheoRfoh

Completely unkillable 1v1.

Anonymous said...

any chance for the tracklist? would be awesome =/ tnx

Daeren said...

Oi! I would prefer to not be classed with the anonymous poster you referred to two posts above me!

<--- anon right above your post

Anonymous2 said...

Again though, you are specifically spec'n for something. I have always liked the unholy/blood spec in terms of survivability and 1v1 options. It's also very nice if you like to guard a flag in AB lol.

Using such a spec has obvious drawbacks though. On some teams and in some situations it'd be silly to give up damage for even more survivability.

The problem still remains that you are specifically spec'n away from dmg/burst and into survivability and then claiming survivability is too high and damage is too low.

If you want to claim that the hybrid spec is "too good" then you can attempt to do so. Right now all you've done is show that when spec'n for defense at the expense of offense your defense is high and your offense is low. That seems pretty reasonable.

If you actually spec a dmg/burst build and your defense is still "too high" and your damage is still "too low" then something definitely needs to be done.

Give up bone armor, give up AMZ, spec MoM, spec Bloody strikes and show us a video of you unloading a DRW ~> HS * X into a target.

Maybe show us a video of a nice CC chain involving hungering cold.

These and other situations will help give us a better overall feel for where the dk stands in terms of viability in assorted situations.

For most people and in terms of balance the game isn't about surviving as long as possible in 1v1. SL/SL locks were very tough to kill, but they still weren't the preferred spec on numerous team comps.

If you enjoy trying to live forever and that spec fits you then enjoy it. To make sweeping statements though given the footage shown and the specs listed seems silly though.

Hearteater said...

Nice videoes, thanks for post them. Glad to see you had a warlock partner :) .

Also, I read some posts you've made regarding Rune Strike on the beta forum. I figured I'd post "8 more interesting designs for Rune Strike":

Rune Strike (8 second CD, does not trigger GCD):
* Deals weapon damage +15% per active rune (20 RP)
* Deals weapon damage +10% per inactive rune (20 RP)
* Deals weapon damage and generates 5 RP per active rune (no cost)
* Deals weapon damage and generates 3 RP per inactive rune (no cost)
* Deals weapon damage and immediately activates your nearest [next to refresh] inactive rune (20 RP)
* Deals weapon damage plus 30 damage per Rune Power (all RP)
* Deals weapon damage and has an additional 1% chance to crit per Rune Power (all RP)
* Repeats your last Strike (Blood, Heart, Plague, Scourge, Death or Frost) at no rune cost, but does not generate RP (30 RP, 20 sec CD, triggers GCD)

Anonymous said...

Hi jayde, one question. What do you think about that

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2330021403200000000000000003052505130532100131023101301000000000000000000000000000000

Neilyo said...

"I think I'm going to have to drop a big dueling video to prove my point. Warriors, hunters and rogues are loltastically easy to beat. "

Hi, I am Neilyo, a random. Lets make a bet, you delete your toons (on live too) if you dont win ONE duel from 20 vs me. You can have any spec you want, I will only play combat.

Again, make a thread on forums in which you promise that you delete your toons if you cant win ONE duel over me. Seeems you are pretty confident so should be a problem, amirite?

P.S. I can tell you how all the 20 duels will end if you want to know. You down at 1% in your knees and me at 75% at best.cya on forums

Anonymous said...

Jayde what do you think about an x/51/0 skill for pvp? The 51 Ice talent is a CC and so maybe it could help.

My dk is only 66, so I am not really the PvP specialist.

Anonymous said...

It seems to me the way the DK's are working now is like Prot wars in live. Tons of survivability and like no dps.

Thats depressing as the DK's conceptually are the tanking class that uses dps to hold aggro otherwise whats the point of using a 2H and all that. I really hope they up it some.

Anonymous2 said...

The point I've been trying to make is that he's spec'd like a prot warrior too. If he were running a burst/dmg spec and his damage was still too low, then it'd be clear there are issues. However, a warrior can't spec prot, and claim they have low dps & high survivability. Ok, they "can", but it doesn't mean much.

Look at the build he just linked, 21/4/46

In blood you have 10 of the 21 points in totally defensive skills. The 4 in frost are mostly defensive(some +atk because of bladed armor, some "offense" due to lower snares).

The 46 in unholy include:

0/5 necrosis
3/5 impurity
0/3 blood caked blade
0/2 dirge (less rp although RP is weak atm)
0/1 scrouge strike(bugged atm)
0/5 RoR (at 46 in could only get 1 anyway)

Even in blood he's only going 3/5 on dark conviction. That's 2% less crit on hits, spells, abilities right there.

As I've said I like the unholy/blood potential for survivability and that style fits some people/comps. However, that is *NOT* the only style.

If you want to see some "burst" then toss hysteria onto a rogue/warrior, drop DRW and unload 2-4 HS while something is strangulated. That is a spec that has some "burst", that is a spec that has damage. By the way, that spec gives up bone armor, it gives up AMZ, etc. See the shift from survivability to damage/burst?

DKs are still due for some changes and they very well might need more (I'm sure they do), but spec'n to survive at the expense of damage and then claiming your survival is high and your damage is low doesn't "help" in terms of balance.

In 1v1 someone has to hit you, but in BGs and arenas lots will simply ignore you and 20(ish) of the points in the spec have little use at that point.

Please, if you want to continue claiming survivability is too high and damage is too low then please spec for damage and away from survival and then talk about how things work out. The current "discussion" is very flawed and only driving more people to potentially false concussions.

soph30 said...

"At this point, I'm going to go ahead and say something selfish: It sure does feel nice to play a class that shits all over rogues for once."

This.

Remnint said...

hey jayde the last song in your vid is the john b remix of Freedom faiulre by one life left :)


also i never see anyone deep blood? wouldnt the DRW burst dps be very handy? plus the up to 13% str buff from a blood unholy build to prpduce more damage?, my point is u still have icebound fortitude and extra healing. what i was thinknig was that a nice 2v2 team would be blood DK and shadow preist both are healing themselves if specced for in blood tree and also the SP will be healing you for even more, combined with the SP's fear and dots etc, then for 3v3 add a MS warrior in there and true it would be a rush and crush team but the mix might be pretty frickin nasty i dunno what u guys think? giv me some feedback

Jayde said...

Well, "right now", why would you take a 2minute cooldown DRW over a ghoul that provides the same level of DPS that's out 100% of the time?

Once tweaks happen, I'll shuffle the build around to reoptomize again. PvP balance is just now going to start receiving attention.

El Diablo said...

hope im not out of line here but i was playing around with the talent calculator an was curious on what you all thought about this build type for general pve AEgrinding and for 5 man instances.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0000000000000000000000
000000050500000000000000000000000035
230035100105253151003133051

dont flame me to badly lol *cringes* but i am open to suggestions or advice

Anonymous2 said...

Rem - There are a lot of interesting specs for DKs depending on what you are going for and who you are grouped with.

There is a lot of potential with a deep blood spec and another dps. Control + burst can be very good.

There is also the potential for hungering cold to prove useful as a nice CC once opponents have burned their trinkets for certain comps.

Additionally, there is potential for a "survival" spec similar to the one being used by jayde here. However, that certainly isn't the only way to spec.

Depending on the team/situation more dps/burst could definitely be the way to go.

I'm still waiting to see the numbers on oblit/DC and any other potential changes, but there's a good chance I'll be running DK + SP at least early on in season 1.

Jayde - "Right now" there isn't a reason to take SS as you admit, but that is very unlikely to be the case when things are "right". I am basing discussion on reasonable fixes/changes.

The ghoul can be killed/CC'd and although most have paid it no attention to this point I think we both know better teams will make the proper choices in addressing the ghoul.

As I've said, some things are out of wack atm and already slated to see changes. Once certain bugs are addressed and certain key skills re-tuned then it'll be much easier to speak about "balance".

Given the current circumstances and the build used though your "conclusions" have obviously mis-lead some and didn't really shed much light on things.

Really hate sounding so negative, you've done a lot right and I don't want to make it seem otherwise. However, in this case, I really wish you'd given things a lot more thought before making such a post.

Acid said...

Jayde:

What happened to Monday's blog post :( Now it's gone...

Jayde said...

http://jadefury.blogspot.com/2008/09/dk-1vs1-survivability-vs-damage.html

?

Acid said...

Yeah that one, didn't see it on the front page, posted a suggestion / feedback / response in there and was wanting to see if a response had been posted but it looked like it had been pulled down. Thnx for the link, much appreciated ;)

Anonymous said...

I know this is very very late....but I believe the last song you had in one of the videos that you forgot the title of is called Freedom Failure... great mix remembered it when I heard it on your video. Just putting this in for anyone who liked that song and well wants to find it.

Anonymous said...

Why don't u use "Blood-Caked Blade"? Isn't that a nice talent? If not, pls tell me why :)