Wednesday, September 24, 2008

DK Changes from today's patch thus far:

I haven't been able to compile a complete list, as I'm still at work. However, here is a sneak peak at what's changed for us this patch (not a complete list):

Damage Buffs:
  • frost strike buffed back to 60%
  • obliterate bonus damage increased by around 35%
  • death coil damage tripled
  • plague strike bonus damage tripled
  • icy touch damage doubled
  • blood strike bonus damage tripled
Survivability Nerfs:

  • Anti-Magic Shell has a 1 minute cooldown
  • Strangulate has a 2 minute cooldown
Survivability Buffs:
  • AMZ buffed to 14k

So, who saw these coming? =]

I'll update this later as I get time to test things out. Overall? Looks great. Our damage sucked, and our survivability was over the top. This is a nice shift of focus.


25 comments:

Daeren said...

AMS nerf is a big PvE nerf though, and an unwarranted one at that.

Anonymous said...

Do you know if the scaling part of DC and IT was buffed too or only the static dmg?

LostHero said...

rofl sorry but 2 min cd on a fucking silence for a class that doesnt even have a MS like ability...
a dk will never ever be able to kill a healer. NEVER.

and 1 min on AMS is way to long as well (thought about 20-30 sec max 45)
this hurts in pve tanking like hell.


and the AMZ is not going to absorb 14k dmg, it absorbs [200% * your AP] + 10000 total dmg, so it scales now (which is good for pve, but makes it another "OFMG NERF!!!" ablity for pvp)
for PvE its base 10000 is still not enough @80.
its ok @70 but has no use @80.

Anonymous said...

Damn...

2minutes on a 5sec silence :/ let's get rid of strangulate and get a 2min CD 10sec CC?

duh.

Anonymous said...

@losthero:

one question to you. Why did you think AMS cd hurts tanking ability??
Ther is no Tank in the game with this ability. The warrior has a spelldeflection. Ole one cast and only for himself. The Pala a bubble, what means brutal aggro loss and the feral has nothing.

Beside i think, unholy specc is not the real for raids. It´s not bad, but I think frost or blood would be prefferd.

Let me ask another way`? what really do AMS? yes, it absorbs DMG. It is necessary for tanking? No! Do you generate Aggro with it? No! Where is the Problem? The Healer has maybe more to do.

Whats makes AMS nice im PvE? you can absorb a shadowboldwave in raids, or another Mageattack when you are tanking, and when there are more the one Tank at the boss, fine everyone has the benefit.

1. You have to be unholy.
2. AMS isn´t that powerfull in PvE like it sounds. Just a little helper

Maso said...

Stop this nonsense! Your real name is Leiah! And you are a Warlock!

But yeah, I'm glad to see these changes for DK's. Blood/Scourge Strike didn't feel rewarding at all after setting up the two diseases. It was ridiculous how long it would take to drop even a single DK in the arena, even in 2v1.

Mr Gosh said...

Nerfs are ok. You can still Mind Freeze or Deathgrip a Caster for spell interuption. As it is now, you will have your Ghoul by your side when pvping. Another 2 sec stun for spell interuption.

AMS is btw a skill you get with lvl 68. You dont need to be specced unholy ;)

Mike said...

AWESOME SMALL TWEAKS ™

:)

LostHero said...

"@losthero:"


i see you havent seen Naxxramas encounter did you?
there are many situations where the old 15 sec AMS just gave the DK Tank a little advantage over a non DK, just like they were designt.

DK = caster tank.


the problem with DK Tanking is not only the nerf AMS got.

DKs have the WEAKEST dmg mitigation ingame of all 4 tankclasses.
their avoidance WAS the highest to compensate this (avoidance tanks are not as desired to heal as mitigation tanks because of smoother dmg flow).

and now blizzard had this stupid Idea to implement avoidance DIMNISHING RETURNS to prevent tanks from beein untouchable in highend tankgear like Druids were in Sunwell gear (without the radiance aura).

for those who dont know what i am talking about:
http://deathknight.info/forum/
index.php?topic=3157.0

and in the elitst jerks forum you can read more about how much exactly that DR will impact on your tanking stats.

so no combine the following 3 facts:

- DKs have the weakest overall mitigation

- DKs wont have the highest avoidance of all tanks, because the better the gear gets, the more the other tanks will keep up with the DK because of very hard avoidance diminishing returns and in the end evens out with DK avoidance, but with the difference that the OTHER TANKS all have a very strong dmg mitigation (see my thread in the link @deathknight info).

- DKs where intruduced as THE magictank, but they arent as good as warriors or maybe even druids (didnt do the math).

warriors have passive 10% dmg reduce in def stance in addition to another skillable magic reduction.
on top of that warriors can spellreflect every 15 seconds.

deathknights now only have their passive 5% reduction in frostpresence and can absorb 75% of a spell every 60 seconds.

no depending on your spec you gain some very little buffs to that "anti magic thing" like 100% absorbution instead of 75% and passive 5% additional magic dmg reduction.

etc pp, i hope you got the point.


Deathknights bring NOTHING to the table that would justify taking a DK over any other tank.
hell even druids with their passive 12% dmg reduction in a party/raid mitigate more dmg than DKs.


and i really wonder why i see no threads about that in the beta forums. it seems like 99,99% of the players only care about fucking PvP.
hell it seems like they doesnt even know about that avoidance diminishing returns introduced some days ago.



jayde i really love your work and efforts you put into the DK class, but could you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE bringt this significant problems up @the beta boards?

you can even do the math yourself if you dont trust me, but DKs WILL take SIGNIFICANT more DMG over time (say during a 10 min bossfight) than ANY OTHER TANK in beta right now.

Anonymous said...

"So, who saw these coming? =]"

Obviously not you. In your post here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10043169887&postId=100422496511&sid=2000#153

you were really only right about AMS. Everyone knew damage was low and was bound to be boosted at some point so you really did not call that either.

Anonymous said...

I think they will have to settle for Frost being the tanking tree, Blood for pve DPS and Unholy for pvp.

My reasoning is that they will eventually have to do same type of balancing for pve i.e. they will need to increase either HP or mitigation to make for some of the avoidance nerfs. But these buffs would make DK OP in pvp by increasing their survivability. So they will have to make one tree with some of these nice survivability buff but nothing for pvp.

Mike said...

@losthero

I'm guessing your not in the beta, but DK tanks are very good at not getting hurt to much, even when they dont dodge/parry. Also, you definetly missread that blue post.

You really don't have anything to worry about while tanking as a deathknight. I have tested about 4 different hyrbrid specs and each of the main specs, and I can tell you that you will be tanking as good as warriors. Assuming you know how to play and use your abilities. You may think "of course Ill be using my abilities" but it really is pretty complicated.

In short, Any DK skilled at tanking will be a good tank. Currently blood is the worst for tanking, but still capable.

You have nothing to worry about. Oh, and don't call us Spell Caster tanks, yes we can mitagate spell damage pretty well, but that isn't our job. Blizzard has made that quite clear.

Losthero said...

again, do the math.
you will ALWAYS take more dmg with the same gear at the same boss than any other tank will.
this will result in more healermana spend in order to keep you alive.

and this will again result in never seeing a DK MT in progress raids.

DKs have less armor than every other tank and DKs are the only ones who DONT have a passive -x% dmg reduction (even druids got a 12% one now!).
this in addition to not being able to block, will result in a much higher dmg taken.

there is no way around this. it is fact.

there are 2 things they (blizzard) must do now.
increase armor once more to be ABOVE warrior/pala armor values and/or give deathknights a passive -x% dmg taken modifier as well (something between 5% und 10%)


dont get me wrong, DKs are amazing offtanks especially because of their many 1 minute cooldown "oh noes" skills.
i would never use a tank that takes more total dmg than another tank would in equal gear. especially not during the "encounter learning phase".

well i dont know the new raidbosses that will come in ulduar an co, but if there will be a raidinstance like sunwell (in terms of difficulty) you wont see a DK MT in there if blizzard doesnt compensate those mechanik nerfs added with the past few builds.
(they already compensated the armornerf druids had to deal with by giving them the passive -12% dmg reduction in a party, but i cant see an single real tanking concerns thread in the DK boards, while druids hat a lot of them going showing blizzard where/what the problem is).

losthero said...

ok at least some smart people start to wake up @beta boards though the TE of that post doesnt get it, some of the people posting later on in the thread seem to notice whats going on.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.
html?topicId=10532593230&sid=2000

i hope blizzard listens to them.

Naman said...

my hope is that now, since we are no longer (or so it seems) The magic tank, which was a lame thing to have attached to us from the start, they will hopefully come good and buff our standard mitigation to bring us in line with the other 3 tank classes.

Because honestly at the end of the day, being just a magic tank or just an avoidance tank makes you then not a very good regular tank. I would much rather have DK's be great tanks, only different than the other 3. Druids and Warriors, IMO, are both equally good yet very different tanks.

My question is do we really need Strangulate, AMS and Mind Freeze? Would it not make just as much sense to have just one ability for spell interrupts and one ability for extra damage reduction from spells? I may be missing something, but all other classes with interrupts, IE, Rogues-Kick, Shaman-Earth Shock have one main spell interrupt ability.

losthero said...

all those other classes have at least a way better mobility (especially in pvp) and on top of that they have a MS like effect.

so yes, DKs somehow need their survivability tools. our burst isn the best as well so otherwise there would be no way to be usefull at all.


but another thing/questing that comes to my mind after playing around with the new Talentcals:

will "Chill of the Grave" and "Dirge" stack?
assuming a 0 44 27 build you would have both talents and still use Obliterate.
will Oblit then generate 20 RP instead of 15?
or will Chuck Norris die when both talents are combined with each other?

the same question goes to a 27 44 0 build where you have bloody strikes and blood of the north, will they both stack, resulting in insane bloodstrikes?

jayde? plx plx :).

Anonymous said...

they should make it this way:

AMS = 45 sec cd untalented

Strangulate = 1 min CD and leave it how it is, OR 45 sec CD like the priest version, but remove the DMG part...

deal?

Naman said...

single ranged interrupt

damage nice but not required.

I mean, Shaman have grounding and earth shock and casters still don't really have that big an issue with that pairing.

Andrew said...

Frankly, reducing our magic resistance is probably a good call, as a warrior's ability massively reduce magic damage though various abilities was probably the principle reason they were main tanks.

I don't like the static numbers that are attacked to BS/HS etc. If being a ret pally has taught us anything, it's that pure percentages scale better.

(PS, if Gift of Arthas still counting as a disease?)

Bobstar said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bobstar said...

Dear Jayde,

I am an european wow player that has been following the deathknight extensively. (My main is a rogue Bobstar on mazrigos)

As europeans we don't get to have as much as an impact on wow as the american players.

What I would like to ask of you is to post this chains of ice suggestion on the beta forums pretty pls :D

Chains of Ice (physical snare)
1 Frost 15 yd range
Instant
Shackles the target with heavy chains, reducing their movement to 40%. Lasts for 20 sec.

alternatively:

Chains of Ice (physical snare)
1 Frost 15 yd range
Instant
Shackles the target with heavy chains, reducing their movement to 35%. The target regains 1% of their movement each second. Lasts for 20 sec.

I firmly believe that a physical snare is the way to go, and having it at 15 yard range instead of 20.

Regardless of your choice, thanks for reading.

Lilo said...

I have one question for beta tester and theorycraft... Do you think that the DK will be good in Arena, and can have his slot in high 3v3 and 5v5 bracket?

Anonymous said...

I think the strangulate cd is a way too long, 30 or even 45 sec would be okay so you dont have to worry about if its the right moment.
The AMS nerf was needed, now you use it when you need it and you dont use it always when its ready.

Anonymous said...

Since DK DPS was already on par PvE wise (maybe even OP?), where will they decrease the damage to even out the buffs?

Anonymous said...

Maybe DK's shouldn't represent themselves in 70% of the top 2's teams, and most of the 3's teams. Obv nerf is obv.