Wednesday, September 17, 2008

Which presence is best for pvp?

In case some of you are still wondering, I've already been through this argument here. :)

Q u o t e:
If we stick to the target we can BS/BB and RP dump and repeat.

This is key. I underlined the most important word in that sentence.

Q u o t e:
Blood presence = more damage

This is only true if you can stick to the target for the vast majority of the fight.

Q u o t e:
Blood presence = bigger burst

Actually, unholy presence is. You even already outlined how and why:

Q u o t e:
Unholy presence - 1 GCD
IT or Chains - 1 second
Plague Strike - 2 seconds
SS/Obliterate - 3 seconds

Blood presence - 1.5 GCD
IT or Chains - 1.5
Plague Strike - 3.0
SS/Obliterate - 4.5

Your auto attack damage is the same, since 15% more auto attack damage = 15% faster auto attack speed. Your specials are doing 15% more damage in blood presence, yes. However, you are spending your runes and doing specials 33% faster (which yields a bigger burst potential).

Let's use your own example, using some static numbers. And let's also assume that you don't even need to use chains, and you're not getting kited, which plays in favor of blood presence.

Blood presence:

IT = 575 damage (500 *1.15)
Plague strike = 575 damage (500 *1.15)
Obliterate = 1150 damage (1000 * 1.15) = 2300 damage in 4.5s This is a burst DPS of 511.


Unholy presence:

IT = 500 damage
Plague strike = 500 damage
Obliterate = 1000 damage = 2000 damage in 3s. This is a burst DPS of 666.

Again, auto attack damage per second (not damage per hit) is the same, so it's a nil factor.
Once you factor in that as a melee class, you will spend a considerable amount of time chasing the target, the fact that unholy presence also offers a tool to aide in this by providing a 15% run speed tips it more in the favor of being the pvp presence.

Unholy presence is better burst damage in pvp, and better mobility. Not to mention, there also is the intangible bonus of being much less likely caught in GCD when you need to hit IBF, bone armor, or strangulate. It has defensive purposes as well, in this light, that blood presence cannot provide, due to the GCD barrier.

Edit: Fixed Math Errors.


Anonymous said...

In beta for me right now, IBF isn't on global cooldown, but the rest of the arguement makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification, however. I always appreciate the math when it's presented :)

Anonymous said...

Jayde- im a big fan and check your page daily for updates on the DK situation. i had a couple of Qs and didn't know where i could ask ya. i don't have a beta key and was wondering if you could make a newer unholy vid (or maybe a unholy vs blood vid even) im caught in between the 2 as far as dmg output. and what is your personal rotation for your spec-if you don't mind me asking. Thanks for all your help. -wildelf of aggramar

Zyphr said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Zyphr said...

I just have a question Jayde.

I'm just wondering about Unholy Presence for endgame raiding.

If we take a blood rotation for endgame dps we are looking at something like:
IT > PS > HS > HS > Obli
IT > PS > HS > HS > HS > HS

Now, in that second rotation you're using 6 instants. Thats 6*1.5 = 9 seconds. In other words unable to use any RP skills afterwards.
Also in the first you can only fit in 1 RP ability due to GCD, and yet this rotation generates 110 RP.

In other words, I'm kinda concerned that the loss from lack of GCD is actually bigger than the loss from switching from 15% haste to +15% dmg.

I didnt really see any topics on the US beta forums touching this subject (or i just missed them).

Im in EU beta atm (on Colderra EU), but im not high enough to really test this out.

Any feedback on that ?

Anonymous said...

How about if Unholy presence did 30% extra damage on specials, instead of just 15% overall damage? Then it would be burst and viable for pvp?

Anonymous said...

Just want to point out you've incorrectly listed unholy presence as being 50% faster, which is mathmatically incorrect unless you meant to say that blood presence is 50% slower.

Spliting hairs I know, but if unholy was 50% faster (ie shorter duration GCD) then it would be .75 seconds.

Anonymous said...

To elaborate:

Even using your own examples you show only a 23% increase in burst between blood and unholy and if you remove the 15% damage boost from blood you'll see the exact 33% increase in DPS, not the 50% you claimed. Not saying 23% isn't better, but figuring in 2% healing and it's down to a 21% difference. Still significant, but a far cry from 50% better.

I do agree that unholy will remain the best PvP presence unless you have a rediculous amount of haste on your personal pvp gear, which is also why blood will be the better PvE spec, but I'm sure everyone gets that by now.

Anonymous said...

Can you please give us three specs for Lvling? at 60, 70 and around 75-78 ?
Thank you :p

Jayde said...

Thanks. I fixed that little error. :)

Anonymous said...

Just wanted to say that I appreciate all the work you put into the game and your blog. Entertaining, informative, and the class will be much better because of your efforts.

Cheers to you, sir. =)

Anonymous said...

What if we take out the +movement speed out of the equation (ie spec into UH aura)?
Now we only have the GCD advantage versus pure 15% more damage to specials.
I'm thinking that this'll create more burst if you stay in UH, but being in Blood will grant you bigger numbers overall.

Jayde said...

"What if we take out the +movement speed out of the equation (ie spec into UH aura)?
Now we only have the GCD advantage versus pure 15% more damage to specials.
I'm thinking that this'll create more burst if you stay in UH, but being in Blood will grant you bigger numbers overall."

You still get kited as a melee class, which means you still have periods where your resources are queueing up and you're sitting with a full or near full rune load while you catch up to your target.

15% extra damage per special is only better if your target is typically stationary (you can stick to the target the vast majority of the fight), and you won't end up skipping a beat on your rune rotations. It IS a DPS and a burst increase in unholy presence when kiting becomes a factor, because you're able to churn through diseases, yellow damage, strangulate, and defensive cooldowns quicker.

When rune and gcd throughput becomes a non factor in fights where mobility is non or very small factor, blood presence does more damage. You'd be hard pressed to find situations like this in pvp, though. And even then, you still don't have the movement speed, and you still don't have quicker gcd to react to things and get off emergency buttons as fast. (bone armor, rune tap, vamp blood, hungering cold, etc etc.)

Jayde said...

And again, even though blood presence does more damage over time, it does not do more burst yellow damage, which is what wins pvp battles.

The intangibles of a lower gcd are too hard to describe until you play with them yourself.

Flexxxo said...

I see, what should blood presence then implement in order to measure up to unholy?

Or will blood be known as the PVE presence and Unholy as the PvP?

Is there even a point trying to make both good in pve and pvp?

Jayde said...

Frost presence = tanking
blood presence = pve dps
unholy presence = pvp

Working as intended. =]

Swoop said...

Jayde, I just beat you in an arena match! My name was Wit, running mage/rogue.

We wrecked your lock. ;)


Jayde said...

I know. I probably shouldn't start matches alt tabbed like a fool. lol.

Swoop said...

Yeah, the problem was that by the time you reached that center platform, your lock was at 50%. He got himself up some with healthstone+death coil on me.

But alas, I trinketed death coil, popped evasion, cloaked, and he died. ;(

I'm not sure what would be a target for you guys in that fight. I'm pretty squishy but my mage was doing rediculous damage himself to your lock/you just freecasting with the mage's new outrageous damage output.

Jame said...

Hey, longer time reader, first time poster, yadda yadda :P

Great blog, I've added it to my links on my own blog. Also for what it's worth, I've been doing some parsing the whole day to see how the new talents compare, especially with the changes to Master of the Ghouls and Unholy Blight. Got some interesting results. Please note the parsings are done at level 61, because I'm trying to figure out what the best leveling build is, for my Death Knight guide. The results are interesting nonetheless.

Here's the article, feel free to come and discuss ;)

Jame -

Oscabo said...

We need some videos of the new patches Jayde! yours are always the funnest/best to watch.

Jayde said...

It's coming.