Friday, September 26, 2008

PvP feedback on the changes (nerfs):

As far as chains goes, it's just a little bit frustrating having both dispels and freedom counter the snare, and without putting 1 point into chillblains, I can't cover the snare with other debuffs the way frost mages can cover nova/sheeps with winters chill, locks can cover fears with more dots, rogues can cover one poison with another, etc.

There were essentially 3 things that really made chains of ice really strong:

1. Undispelable.
2. Incredible range for an instant root/snare.
3. The amount it snares (as it's technically a root at first without DR)


When you combine them, it's over the top. I'm guessing because if you went with changing either point 2 or 3, you'd end up with just another hamstring, which is effective, but boring. Class homogenization sucks, but then again, so does getting kited. I hope this isn't going to be the final implementation.

Perhaps our PvP gloves should probably updated with a new bonus. Perhaps one that grants either an additional cooldown reduction on death grip (which is incredibly good when combined with chains), or a buff to the undispelable chance for chains instead.

A five second reduction off a 2 minute cooldown on strangulate (which is a nerf that I think was a bit overdone) has suddenly lost a lot of appeal. :)

Also, I feel like AMS is just another psuedo Cloak of Shadows now. The thing about AMS was that it was great to use to absorb damage, which filled RP, which could then be used for different purposes.

Can we just get the immunity to CC effects removed, and have the cooldown significantly lowered? I don't want to be immune to magic classes, but merely take less damage from them. Being immune to binary spells is what realy made the ability stupid. I'd be more than OK at this point if I could simply get feared/polied when it's up.

Using AMS to negate damage in pvp and pve was cool, especially when it had this neat mechanic that let you charge RP while getting kited by someone nuking you. Even if you lowered the amount that it absorbed, that would be fine. A 1 minute cooldown AMS feels pretty gimmicky right now, and it really takes a lot of the fun factor out. Make it less effective than before, but available more often.

It's a fun ability, but no one wants it to be overpowered (especially non DKs), and DKs want to actually be able to use it.

I don't think AMS should make DKs immune to CC and damage (or mitigate most of it) at the same time.

Look at zerker rage for warriors. Fear immunity every for 1/3 of the match, at least. Can you imagine how people would feel if it made you immune to both fear AND an entire line of damage (magical or physical)? People would be saying the same thing about zerker rage if it was like that. You can't have both. It's just not fair or balanced.

It really needs to be one or the other, and being immune or having high mitigation to magical CC just doesn't translate as well to PvE, nor does it work well with that whole 'absorb-damage-to-charge-RP' thing.

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

Please please please address pve tank itemization. Seems like pvp is the main focus, but DK's seemed to be getting screwed when it comes to items (Specifically tanking). It looks like all +shield block gear will be going to warriors and tankadins while all the +parry gear will be shared amongst the 3. Also, no tank 2h weapons in naxx? Are we going to be forced to DW to make up defense and stam stats?

Rob said...

Yeah, it seems Blizz went a little gung-ho on the DK nerfs. 2 min on Strangulate is more than excessive heh.

I agree with the immunity removal and keeping the damage reduction. 1 min is too long, however what would you propose a modest CD would be?

Also, if it were possible please check out http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?board=34.0

It's a pretty extensive bit I'm working on regarding warlocks and wotlk. It's all hypothetical talents and whatnot, but I'm hoping at least one shining idea would emerge from the rough :)

Naebliz said...

im really tired of stuff being called for a nerf cus of pvp issues, its a 5 second duration according to wowhead.

5 seconds is not that a long time, hell casters have endured Clos that had a shorter cd for a year and still managed.
i also feel its a "choice" when to use it at a 1 min cd over it losing its effectiveness to become a "spam" ability, hell i would still like the spell if it got a 2 min cd like Bm which is a talent and ams a baseline spell and bm lasts for 18 secs doing the same except the magical dmg reduce if the effect lasted for 18 secs not5 secs then yes i would have agreed on a duration reduce but not on reducing cooldown if it meant reducing its effectiveness.
and if its so "overpowered" maybe they should make it cost a rune also but please stop calling for "nerfs" on stuff because off pvp when its not overpowered at all specially since blizz developers seems to listen to your feedback and there are those of us that dont reroll deathknight just to be gimped in your tanking/dps role cus of pvp which has happened to alot of classes.

Naebliz said...

"your tanking/dps role= our tanking/dps role"

should been some more dots and such but oh well late night friday bored surfing typing ;)

Anonymous said...

I'm afraid that if AMS did not block CC's, it would just make it much more annoying. Why bother DPS'ing the DK when you can cc it for 10 secs periods at a go? (if not longer if you chain cc's)You now effectively have a warrior with absolutely no CC defense (at least warrior can spell reflect and fear break with zerk rage, and snare removal via talents) It just makes the kiting issue even more obvious and problematic.

Watching your partner die in pvp helpless is way more frustrating than not having enough runic power. The old AMS might be insane for duels (since the other person could not kill you at all). But I think what would have been truly OP is the fact that you could not be CC'd in a group environment.

ed said...

I was actually discussing the exact same things jayde pointed out with my buddy after I read about the nerfs.

2 min on strangulate? seriously? but they didnt change it's effectiveness at all!?!? come on.. completely overboard...

1 min on AMS? ugh... how about they turn around and make it last 5 seconds, 30 second cd to start with... that might be better. or remove the immunity during it...but that leaves us wide open to CC's...
now it's just a cloak of skill...no fun...

chains dispellable? they need to make chains apply a mini frost fever to start with then (about 50% as effective as normal frost fever) simply to give it a little protection. or make it apply to virulence? i don't know, either of those may work. or maybe something along the lines of "if it is dispelled, the rune used to cast is automatically refreshed" that may work as well

Anonymous said...

Odd just a bit ago you were saying these were needed changes Jayde. I guess you got kited to much and didnt win any arenas now eh.

Oscabo said...

Hey Jayde- I know you are concerned quite a bit with pvp balancing right now, and doing a great job with your feedback and ideas, but any chance of some detailed dps and tanking feedback with the newest changes for us pve carebears out here? Or any upcoming pve videos in the works? training dummies, new heroics, etc. We all appreciate your testing, thanks!

Anonymous said...

hey, you wanted our survivability nerfed. here you go

Anonymous said...

could anyone list me some reasons why a team would take a dk over a warrior?

Sijmister said...

Hey Jayde, your posts are always clear, objective, and analyze the issues effectively, without any sort of emotional outcry to nerfs, which is why they are always a pleasure to read. I am not even sure if I am going to roll a DK when WoTLK comes out, yet I read your posts all the time. So, I was wondering if you could do me and many shadow priests a favor and make and objective analysis of the state of our class from a pvp standpoint, at least from what you know of shadow priests. Taking things into account like available CC, the abilty to survive through heavy burst with any cooldowns we may have, DoT protection, mana efficiency, snare removal/resistance, silences and stuns, things like that. I would post on these issues myself if I were in the beta. But the problem is, many shadow priests already have, but they are either too emotional to garner attention, or the devs do not know how to address these issues without radically changing the class, or Koraa just likes being a Negative Nancy and shooting all of our suggestions down. Whatever the case, it would be really awesome if you could do a class analysis for us based on whatever you know about the class.

Jayde said...

@sijmister:

Interesting inquiry, but I'm afraid I'm not intimately familiar with the priest class with the way I am with some others. In fact, I've only played a friend's priest for a short while to heal in raids.

I don't think I'd be in a good posture to confidently request changes that would be good for the class because of this. :(

Sijmister said...

No problem, I just really appreciate your level-headed style of analysis. That said, do you ever feel that Shadow Priests are a challenge to duel or take on, whether it be with your warlock, druid, or DK?

Anonymous said...

DKs are are really going to need a lot of rewordk once WRATH is released, expect it.

They have an unfinished feeling in many things.

While in some situations they seem strong I have many scenarios where they are easy to deal with.


On a note for you, avoid doing suggestions youa re not really good at that.
You find things that look like a problem but the solutions you tend to propouse are usually bad and bring more problems.