Tuesday, August 5, 2008

Unholy presence concern:

Posted here.

Sorry for the slower posting lately. I just started a new IT contract job so I haven't had as much free time lately.


moofrog said...


Just want to include my 2 cents.

Unholy presence:
Infuses the Death Knight with unholy fury, increasing RUN SPEED AND attack speed by 15% and reducing the global cooldown on all Death Knight abilities by 0.5 sec. Only one Presence may be active at a time.

Unholy aura:
Increases your Shadow Resistance by 32/65. While in Unholy Presence, decreases rune recharge time by 1/2 seconds.

moofrog said...

Oh. I also liked Visas' suggestion too, about the entire party taking 10% less dmg from spells. It actually does kind of coincide with Unholy.

Actually..here's another idea:

Unholy aura:
Increases your Shadow Resistance by 32/65. While in Unholy Presence, all party members within 45 yards reflect 5/10% spell damage back to casters.

That would mean 10% less spell damage for everyone, INCLUDING a spell reflect built in. That'd be worth taking. Because then you can and still should take magic supression and anti-magic zone.

Dude, that'd be sweet!!! :P

Breathweapon said...

Adding a movement speed increase isn't good enough, sure it's useful in PvP, but Unholy Presence shouldn't be the non-PvE presence compared to Blood Presence and Frost Presence tho'.

Perhaps Blood Presence should lose % damage and gain % health, or Unholy Presence should reduce the CD on Runes for 2 seconds instead of % haste?

Combining a reduced GCD with a reduced Rune CD would be a lot more fun than generic % haste, and if Unholy Presence's damage out put is greater than Blood Presence's damage out put, you could just increase the % health with out unbalancing the equation.

esjde said...

Would it be possible in game play to have Unholy presence, backfires all movement imparing effects into damage on the person who casted it?

Breathweapon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Presences are fine imo.

-Blood Presence is PvE dps
-Unholy Presence is Pvp
-Frost is tanking

they all are best there.
1 sec GCD means you will be able to get in 3 strikes in 3 seconds compared to 2 in blood.

3 strikes could be a complete little rotation IT -> Plague Strike -> Obliterate

Since my guess is that you won't get your nonstop kite it will become crucial how much damage you can pound into your opponent for the short duration you are able to hit him.

I can't really understand how 0,5 GCD Reduction doesn't seem very strong to you for pvp purposes.

Unholy should not become a PvE Presence. I'm strongly against this. I like the presences the way they are to be honest.

I would also guess that after Death Grip gets a snare / root / stun and AMS is no longer dispellable many concerns will get weaker.

I did some duels myself and i found this class to be pretty up par when you consider these things done together with the other changes.


Anonymous said...

I wish I could post this on the DK forums, but for some reason my WOTLK account doesn't work for the forums...So, I'd like to ask Jayde to make a note of it.

Basically, I think that the new plague strike (that removes one hot) will be weak. We're talking about at most removing 2 hots (that have a 30% chance to resist dispel most likely) every 10 seconds for 4/6 of your runes--completely gimping your damage. How it that at all effective compared to just dispel magic? Rather, I think that the ticks of blood plague should have a chance to remove HoTs just like abolish has a chance to remove diseases. What do you guys think?

Naman said...

#1 Please I implore you to suggest again that they do away with the aura talents. Either remove them totally or roll them into the presences. I easily see the auras alone forcing specs based on min/max values which defeats the entire purpose of the DK talent trees.

#2 I agree that is seems like and makes that:
Blood = PVE DPS
Frost = PVE Tanking
Unholy = PVP

With this in mind just take whatever the shortcomings for Death Knight ina given situation and effect that to the aura, IE:

Blood = +damage, healing and I wish the -threat talent would be rolled in the blood presence
Frost = +threat and +armor and/or + any other needed tank boost
Unholy = (DK PVP Shortcomings) So perhaps less vulnerable to movement impairing effects and causes diseases to afflict the target with a snare... or Unholy presence causes any opponents in 15 yards to have their movement slowed by X% allowing the DK to keep a target in range after having closed the gap.

Either way, I think they should just make Unholy overcome the PVP shortcomings, which by my best guess would be things to do with movement impairing, CC and staying on your target.

Briahn said...

I had suggested this sort of idea as a survival hunter talent way back when, but I think it may work well here for Unholy aura.

How about an additive reduction in the effectiveness of snares, say 15%? Calculated like this:

* Hamstring slows you 35% instead of 50%.
* Crippling Poison slows you 55% instead of 70%.
* Mind Flay slows you 35% instead of 50%.

And so on.

Anonymous said...

I think many of you guys are missing the point. Not unexpected. Shows the lack of real theorycrafters here.
The power of Unholy presence to reduce the GCD is not really appreciated by people who haven't crunched the math

I direct you to the thread

especially the posts by Goldwater.

In sustained DPS, Unholy Presence wins hands down over Blood presence for deep Blood DKs. Ironically for Blood DKs Blood Presence is only a solo, 5 man, utility presence but Unholy will be required by serious min/maxers in a raid setting. If anything its Blood Presence that needs to be buffed to make it viable for blood specced DKs

moofrog said...

I love it when someone posts anonymously and bashes other people. Why not come out and post who you are?

I think the GCD needs to be kept in tact as well. It should be a 'haste' type presence. Personally it should increase your attack speed & run speed, along with GCD of .5 seconds

The AURA spec that you can get, needs to do something more.

1) Aura provides shadow resist, and slows movement of 25/50%


2) Aura provides spell reflect of 5/10% for entire party


3) Decreases the amount of time all runes recharge by 1/2 seconds

Any of those 3 would make me want to spec that deep for PVP purposes.

Blood aura is great where it is at, providing a 100% return in health to all party members when using any of your abilities. This would include rune tap, death strike, blood presence, etc. I think it's great and that itself may be a powerful PVP component, although not "THE" pvp one.

You could have 2 DKs, one with blood and 1 with unholy on an arena team and pretty pretty awesome.

I still think that Death Grip needs a daze effect of at least 3 seconds if not longer. I'd love to see it have a 5 second daze. This would help with other attacks that gain damage from dazed targets as well, so we can 'mesh' better with other classes, plus you cannot remove dazed effects.

I would also like to see frost aura buffed some. 6% health increase is OK. I would like to see it 5/10% or something a bit different or better for tanking purposes.

Amir said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I wasn't responding to the comment on the talent auras. I was responding to the discussion re: Unholy presence mostly on the beta forums where comments such as:
"That aside, if we continue discussion as unholy being pvp, I agree it should be looked at as I also feel the "crunch" abilities that would take advantage of the lower GCD are now off the GCD, and so the GCD reduction now seems a bit lackluster."

Unholy is not a strictly PVP presence. Unholy GCD reduction is not "lackluster". Its incredible powerful and actually is more significant DPS for Blood Spec in particular because it allows you to fit in enough GCDs in a 10 sec cycle to actually overcome the damage benefit of Blood Presence.

The difference is not noticable at the current level of play but becomes critical in end game raiding.

Anonymous said...

Further comments:
"But when you take those numbers out to their logical conclusion after standing still whacking something for 5-10 min, the raw +15% damage comes out ahead."
Wrong. It doesn't

"You shouldn't be talking about PVE with regards to unholy presence. It wasn't designed for PVE purposes or use, so comparing it to blood or frost in a pve envrionment is silly. "

Wrong. Who made you the decider what UP was designed for especially when it has a significant PVE use

Leiah said...

Noone made me the decider of what the presences were meant to do.

Kalgan does that.


Anonymous said...

Then why try to exclude the PVE discussion when it comes to your point of seeing it buffed?

Maybe a better way of seeing the presences is BP if for solo/5man play,FP is for tanking and UP is for raid DPS.

If DP was really meant as the DPS presence and UP really is strictly PVP then the developers need to go back and re-examine the mechanics of how the presences are working, because BP rather than UP is underperforming.

Leiah said...

That's the entire point of the post........

Anonymous said...

rune regen 25% faster with unholy aura would be very nice thanks

Anonymous said...

Re: Unholy presence,

Yes, it needs to be changed. Rolling the aura talent into the current effect isn't the answer though. I can't help but notice you've been approaching a lot of balance issues from a PvP perspective (understandable, as that's about all that's open to you atm). Try to keep PvE implications in mind at all times is what I'd ask though. For example, what kind of benefit is Blood Presence gonna have over Unholy or Frost in a raid setting, especially as a dps role? What I'm getting at is that a stacked 10% speed buff to an entire raid is gonna be pretty OP if any DK can bring it--so much so that most guilds are gonna feel obligated to bring a DK to be the Unholy Presence bitch. That's fine if you have one specced deep Unholy, but a base ability? Mmmm.

I'm gonna make another comment regarding something kinda unrelated, so apologies on its placement.

Anonymous said...

(I'm not in the beta, so I apologize for any ignorance I (most assuredly) possess. I was wondering if you'd seen any discussion about this:)

So when the new talents hit I started toying with an Unholy raiding dps spec. Right now, here's what I've reached:


All lack of knowledge about future raiding aside, what kind of AoE rotation is a DK going to have? I have no idea what runic power buildup will be like, but with Unholy Blight on a 1 minute cooldown you're looking at one runic power dump per pull. Is that gonna be sustainable over an entire pull? I'm just wondering how those mechanics are gonna work, and if perhaps frost needs another core ability that lends itself towards AoE. Or are Unholy DKs just going to be better single-targetting and dumping their rune power on Unholy Blight?

omgwtfbbq said...

haha you sneaky fuck, i watched the lolgrip.wmv video, wow what perfect timing. i bet that guy was super pissed. well played.

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